Pauls letters were occasional, and the scriptural texts that he cited and used were determined largely by the circumstances in which he was writing. Moreover, his arguments for a shorter Old Testament canon are contradicted by the biblical and historical evidence. Can a conclusion be infallible if the underlying logic is false? Dont have the context of this question. But its still the first movie. The late twentieth-century Christian apologist Francis A. Schaeffer saw Christian apologetics as " pre-evangelism " - a way to prepare the mind and heart for the Christian message (the Gospel). One other point that I would raise is that other arguments that Protestants use to try to show that Jesus had brothers simply dont work. "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" - Psalm 139: 13,16 I always wanted to have five kids, but I met and married my Now, as I said, we do find this in other roughly contemporary literature. Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Nangungunang mga yugto ng podcast This is also the view of St. John Chrysostom as late as the fifth century, venerated as a doctor of the church of Roman Catholicism, who also believed Mary thought Jesus had gone mad. I also want to thank Trent for agreeing to our second debate and we hit over 800, I saw in there, which actually our first debate, so praise Jesus for that. So I would actually disagree with Cardinal Newman to be deep into history as deceased to be Protestant. It doesnt even imply that. This is hard, isnt it? Campbell states that when it comes to Josephus claims about a universal Hebrew canon, as well as an entire manuscript tradition that had never been altered, Josephuss rhetoric has run ahead of reality. So my question for you then would be what are some objections you hear from Protestants that when you hear them, you think, Oh goodness, you dont even understand the Catholic position. So starting with Trent. First Corinthians chapter seven, again, it says, For a season in order to separate, but then it says, So that you go back, married couples to go back so you do not get tempted by Satan because of your lack of self-control. Hallo.com/mattfred. Follow him on Twitter: @sean_mcdowell and his blog: seanmcdowell.org. But were not debating whether the Bible teaches the immaculate conception. I wouldnt assume that that involves a vow virginity, but I think theres a different context in relation to the fact that we have betrothal between Mary and Joseph, that its an odd construction. This passage also contradicts the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary since Jesus mother was with Jesus brothers in verses 20 to 21, when they accused him of being out of his senses. This is make or break time. And even if it wasnt, I dont see the relevance to it. It was only four yards short of the all-time NFL record. So summarize, the Bible does not teach that Mary sin nor does it teach that every single human being has committed a sin or inherited original sin without exception. Steven is related to James P Christie and Helen J Christie as well as 1 additional person. Did their authors believe God had stopped speaking decades or centuries earlier? Now, does the Bible teach that everyone has sinned? Isiah wrote the deliverer will come out of Zion. Christie is currently President of Relative Goal Sports and Entertainment Management LLC., certified as a Canadian Football League contract advisor and has represented numerous musical acts in both the United States and Scotland. Thats what I believe. Even if you have to have some things in essential form, I think he would have to pick someone pretty late in church history, at least over a thousand or 1500 years or 1800 years. Kelly said, for the great majority of the early Church Fathers, the deuterocanonical writings ranked as Scripture in the fullest sense (Early Christian Doctrines, 55). And this is what I did in the opening statement. I mean, to quote Jimmy Akin, when he was asked, Did all the early church fathers agree? He says, Boy, did they not all agree? So there was a lot that the early church disagreed on and there was things that they agreed on, things that Trent would agree on and theres things that they agreed on that I would actually believe in. A protestant scholar Craig keener says neither the title favored or graced one nor the promise the Lord is with you was traditional in greetings even if the person had been of status. So we wouldnt be surprised that Septuagintal constructions would be used in the New Testament, including the fact that [foreign language 00:26:54] can imply a reversal as it does in the Greek gold Testament but it wouldnt be surprising to find it in the New Testament. Okay. So thank you very much both you, God bless you, and stay safe out there. Hebrews 11:5 states, By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death. And he was not found because God took him up. So Im going to cover four of them. Probably not like any other piece of wood. No, it doesnt say that but it doesnt say Joseph was bodily assumed into heaven and the same three dogmas could apply to Joseph as well, but we dont make as much why is there not a dogma those dogmas apply to Joseph. Steve, we just heard from David Wright, the clock is ticking, those batteries could run out by early next week. We see this in Luke 3:1, and if these siblings are Jesuss adoptive siblings from Josephs previous marriage, theres absolutely no contradiction here whatsoever. Agreed. So Ive got two more questions here. Regarding proof from scripture, for this dogma founder and senior fellow of Catholic Answers, Karl Keating wrote There is none, in his book, Catholicism and Fundamentalism understanding that these three Catholic Marian Dogmas contradict scripture has twofold importance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It has nothing to do with Mary being the ark. He says, this is a question for Steve. If Matthew wished to convey Marys virginity was perpetual, there would be no need to add until she gave birth to a son. She wouldve simply ended with he kept her a virgin or added throughout her marriage. I didnt bring up [Greek 00:52:36]. Mary and Joseph are perfectly free to have children. And I would also address that Luke actually specifically states that it is a salutation. I do talk about how much evidence that Greek word has for the immaculate conception, and I also note in my book its use in the Book of Sirach. If she were sinless, what would happen to her if she-. So does that mean that Mary could have had daughters because it says, the son of Mary? How do we know Andrew and Peter are brothers? It has to be interpreted charitably, or its possible there might be an error in a magisterial statement recounting history, but that doesnt apply the charism to the doctrine itself. It is forbidden to any man to change this, to oppose and counter it. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. Did they believe Marys Well were out of time, so [inaudible 01:16:57]. Until his death of cancer at 74 in May, Zacharias had been one of the best-known figures of American Christian radio and TV for decades. [foreign language 00:26:34] was also used in literature that existed at roughly the same time period as the New Testament. No, it doesnt. Qualification, rates and payments will vary based on timing and individual circumstances. What plunged mankind into the fall was Adams sin, which resulted in Adam and by extension all of mankind, including Mary, physically dying. Yeah, sure. Cyril of Jerusalem refers to Baruch as the prophet, cites Baruch 3:35-37 in defense of the deity of Christ and includes Baruch in the writings of Jeremiah in his list of the canon. Add another name to the list of Buffalo Bills greats who have endured a traumatic 2014.The Bills' all-time greatest kicker, Steve Christie, Ex-Bills kicker Steve Christie reveals his successful . We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. Finally, this debate is not about Marian doctrines or theological opinions about Mary. There is an article, I might share this soon, by a Catholic philosopher, Jack Mulder, where he talks about, Mary being immaculate conceived, its fitting and may be required because that way, Mary is perfectly able to consent to become pregnant with our savior. And hes not. Of course, this objection becomes a problem for Protestants since by this standard, many of their doctrine like sola scriptura, eternal security, sola fide would also arrive too late in church history to count as being apostolic. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the timer. Were going to move to Trent now for his 15 minute opening. Matthew 18:17 says, Jesus says, If a person who sins against you refuses to listen to you or two or three witnesses, tell it to the church. And it seems to envision the church as having some kind of authoritative structure and not simply as the invisible bond between all believers. In week 10 vs. the New England Patriots, Christie kicked a 48-yard field goal in rainy conditions with just seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. Why is there disagreement between relatives, older stepbrothers, cousins, et cetera? Married in 1976, the couple attended churches of several denominations along with some non-denominational churches. My point in that its not the definite article that is interesting, the son of Mary. And weve also addressed that frequently at catholic.com. He claims this shows Jesus believed the Old Testament was confined to Genesis (or Abel) and 2 Chronicles (or Zechariah). (Horn V. Christie). Christie claims that Jesus declaration to the Pharisees about all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar was actually an endorsement of the Protestant Old Testament canon. In Speaking for the Unborn, Dr. Steven Christie offers very clear, convincing, and often witty answers to almost every possible argument in favor of abortion. Okay, you can start now. Second Samuel 6:23 says, Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to or eos the day of her death. Which of course she did not have children after she died. Heres a question that I have that Id be interested in both of you answering. The first man Adam is from the earth, earthy. First Corinthians 15, in my opening statement, it says that there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies and people who have earthly bodies are sown perishable, meaning corruptible in dishonor, meaning contempt, reproach. Hallow.com/mattfred. And then take heart in knowing that these teachings about Mary dont contradict Scripture, and then we can further infer and try to understand what are the sources of divine revelation. Steve may not believe thats what the text says, but if it does say that, theres no contradiction in it saying that. As 1 Timothy 3:15 says, the pillar and foundation of truth. Were debating whether scripture contradicts it, and that has not been demonstrated here. Christie's career in Buffalo spanned 144 regular season games and a 78.3 success rate on field goals. No, I can think of anything like that, but I would say that Marys status as being the God bearer would mean thered be many truths that are quite unique to her that we dont find in either old or New Testament. And two, they are binding to the faithful Catholic, who is threatened with an anathema if they reject any of them, despite them all contradicting God-breathed scripture. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the He says in Philippians 3:7 that whatever gain he had as a Pharisee he counted as loss for the sake of Christ. In Galatians 1:13 he calls his Jewish zealotry a former way of life, and in 1 Corinthians 9:20 Paul explicitly says he was not under the Mosaic law, which was a non-negotiable belief for the Pharisees. Steve Cable, April 18, 2022 Steve Cable explains how the apostle Peter showed himself to be a master apologist, not the bumbling, brash fisherman he used to be. What we can find in the writings of the Church Fathers, however, are hundreds of citations of the deuterocanonical books as inspired Scripture. Christie also claims Jesus reference to the Pharisee Nicodemus as the teacher of Israel (John 3:10) meant the Pharisees had unique teaching authority over other Jews. And Im curious, you used a comment about Jesus being the son of Mary. Okay. Theres nothing in scripture that states that Mary was an exception to this. Check out our newest Lake Effect team. But let me get to that point about death though. As I said before, these could be adoptive siblings. No, I dont think you are following my point. Do it right now. I dont have a problem with the word a adelphos, that was never my argument. Sure. Massive thanks to those who support us at locals and on Patreon. Stephen Christie has been at the top of the Real Estate Industry for 30 years. How do we know theyre brothers? Our two sources of evidence during this period would be Jewish and Christian authors. The earliest codex we have is the tenth-century-A.D. Aleppo codex, and it places the book of Chronicles at the beginning of the Writings (or ketuvim) and not as the last book of the Hebrew bible. St. Jerome, who was skeptical of the manuscript history behind these books, even tells us that at the Council of Nicaea the deuterocanonical work of Judith was considered part of the canon of Scripture. My point though was to show that the Marian dogmas do not contradict Scripture. So it still fits semantically. At what point does Marion devotion or veneration turn into idolatry? Steve Christie Geoffrey Stephen Christie Position: K 6-0 , 195lb (183cm, 88kg) Born: November 13 in Oakville, Ontario (Age: 55-107d) College: William & Mary Weighted Career AV (100-95-. All right. I dont know if I would. . In his 15 NFL seasons, Christie converted 336 of 431 (77%) field goals and 468 of 473 (98%) extra points, giving him a total of 1,476 points. So just a historical note for everybody watching. And Steve has said, Well, we know theres an exception because the Bible says that Jesus is the exception. So clearly, then, that means the Bible can make universal statements, but sources of divine revelation can give us those exceptions. And remember this is the focus of our debate, how its used in scripture. . I mean, today there are Roman Catholics, about 70% of American Catholics that [inaudible 01:32:21] substantiation, let me finish-. Well, there we go and right on time. Jude 9 talks about the archangel, Michael, contending with the devil disputing about the body of Moses and taking the body of Moses, the dead body of Moses, that being assumed into heaven. So thats another one. Well, the kinsfolk, you can have relatives that dont know very much about you or misunderstand you. Hebrews 11:35 describes a group of people in the Old Testament period who were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they may rise again to a better life. The only record of this is found in 2 Maccabees 7, which describes brothers who accept torture at the hands of the Seleucids instead of eating pork and violating Jewish law. September 16, 2018 by Randal. Finally, the point about Mary dying, I think Steve was really missing this here. So hes just talking about this birthright that he mentions about 10 versus later. And I think one way that makes sense would be if Joseph had been previously married. Edward John Carnell - was a prominent and influential Christian theologian and apologist. Trent, do you want to start or do you want me to answer that first? Okay. It refers to a natural sister as well or a biological [inaudible 01:15:42]. Sep 29, 2021. He might bring it up in his rebuttal. The Morning Ritual with Garret Lewis. They shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only child and weep bitterly over him as one weeps over a firstborn. So the terms can both be used in interchangeably in that respect. In that day, you will surely die. Which he eventually did. I want to comment on his use of the word veneration. So for example, I think Steve is right that the use of the word [inaudible 01:43:59] in Luke 1:28 does not, in and of itself, prove the immaculate conception. Trent had mentioned about Elijah and Enoch being assumed to heaven. So to everybody whos watching, please stick around. I cant go into that in detail here in the answer, but I might talk about it in a future podcast episode. I would say that this is a really important question and one for us to look at, that for Protestants and Catholics to have dialogue with one another and to get closer to the truth, I think its huge to be able to move from And what this debate is about, is about do these beliefs contradict Scripture? The word savior is used consistently in the New Testament to refer to a savior of sins. So my point would be that if we would show that devotion to the means through which Jesus died, why wouldnt we show that similar devotion through the means by which Jesus was born? Finally, Christies Pharisee argument for the Protestant Old Testament canon fails because its logic can be used to make a similar argument for a completely different Old Testament canon. Adelphos is not my issue. And you, just so people are aware, arent being mean or anything by doing that. Sure. Im a little disturbed about the comment about anything in Scripture being in error, because if we cannot trust that when it says about Jesus being our savior and rising from the dead. All righty. Dr. Tony Costa and Steve Christie, The Issue of Canon and Sola Scriptura - The Council, Presuppositional Apologetics Round Up: Third week of August 2021 | The Domain for Truth, Response to Sam Shamoun's post Purgatory debate recap of Dr. Michael Brown against William Albrecht - The Council, Responding to Gary Michuta's Abel to Zechariah Counter-Arguments with Steve Christie & Paul - The Council, The Marian Dogmas Contradict Scripture, Trent Horn Vs. Steve Christie - The Council, Necessitarianism: Conceive of the Possibilities. Some of these questions are for both of you but it might be better if I ask a question, just one of you respond since we have so many. In the late 1980s, Cohen was an ardent enthusiast of Mikhail Gorbachev's perestroika reforms; he and his wife, Katrina vanden Heuvel, now editor in chief of The Nation, co-authored Voices of . Heres my thought on that. If anything like the parents hes a good kid, but I cant imagine by the age of seven that his oldest child hasnt sinned one time. Steve Skojec, Christian Apologetics, and the Problem of Faith June 2, 2021 Esther O'Reilly Patheos Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! Well, it is an argument that actually I hear from a lot of contemporary Catholic apologists. Yes. So thats all up there as well. And, as it turns out, Christies book fails to produce any such standard. So ultimately Steve has the burden here to show that the Marian dogmas contradict scripture, and hes brought up a lot of points. Okay. The Counsel of Trent 46.3K subscribers In this debate, originally hosted at Pints with Aquinas, Trent Horn engages Protestant apologist Steve Christie on the question of whether the Marian. So Steves defending the affirmative. Even if the Pharisees had a canon that matched modern Protestantisms, his argument doesnt work, because it relies on a mistaken assumption about the Pharisees authority. Im not sure what your question is. Philosophy program at Talbot. He serves as a staff apologist for Catholic Answers, where he specializes in teaching Catholics to graciously and persuasively engage those who disagree with them. It is a matter of which authority are you willing to submit to. It is often said, in order to detect a counterfeit bill, you dont study other counterfeit bills, but instead you first study the genuine thing, then youll be able to detect a counterfeit easily. And in the Reformation, the two doctrines that came out of it was Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. Mary did not need to be immaculate conceived since sin is not a trait that is passed down physically, but a spiritual condition. This means that there was no single, closed Hebrew canon during the time of Christ, and some Jews considered the deuterocanonical books to be Scripture. How do you understand Luke 1:28s title for Mary as full of grace in the Greek, literally meaning something like having been made completely full in regards to the immaculate conception? Gordon Clark - Christian philosopher, apologist, and theologian. So we see here that messianic Psalms are often applied to Jesus in non-literal ways. But even St. Louis de Montfort who uses very lofty language of Mary says of her that she is but one Adam in comparison to the infinite and majestic glory that is God. So this question is for Steve and this comes from Kevin, whos a local supporter. Can a person die? We must be careful, of course, that in Marion devotion, sometimes people use very flowery language that they shouldnt necessarily be taken literally because they love Mary as the mother of God who leads us to her son. How about Marys parents and Joseph who was from the same tribe who she was betrothed to? Which church father would you want to preach at your church? A person could be a Protestant, because we have to understand what a Protestant is and we have to go back to the Reformation for it. And most commentaries agree that this passage parallels what Hannah says in First Samuel 2:1, and she likewise doesnt mention sin. Verse eighteen describes the enemies of the righteous one, saying, If the righteous one is the son of God, God will help him and deliver him from the hand of his foes, which parallels the Jewish authorities taunts during Jesus crucifixion recorded in Matthew 27:43: He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, I am the Son of God.. But it doesnt say anything about him being bodily assumed or anything. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. Singleton New South Wales MRC Australia provide radiator and cooling solutions to Mining , Automotive, Industrial , Agricultural , Marine and Rail Operations. I dont know how you would feel. Because you could say, Well, Solomon is the son of David, but David had many other children besides Solomon. So it must be used in some other way. All right, so the Bible does not say that Mary committed a sin. And in the new Testament, the specific Greek word for savior is used about two dozen in times, and every time that its used in scripture, in the New Testament, it always refers to God or Jesus being a savior of salvation and saving someone from sins, which is why I brought up Acts chapter five and The Epistle of Titus. The danger of submitting to this fallible authority extends to submitting to their authority of their unbiblical view of salvation of infusion of grace through the sacraments, which also contradicts Scripture, which teaches justification by imputation of grace by faith alone. This is an example of eisegesis and known as a typology thats used a lot of times by Catholic apologists. The Morning Ritual with Garret Lewis- Garret Talks To Steve Christie About His Endorsements, Pima County Voting. Being sinful is saying that you have inherited original sin and becoming sin means that sin was imputed to you. Okay. The other thing about Jesus is, yes, Jesus did not sin, but the Bible says that he took on sin, which is different than actually inheriting sin because, again, he is conceived by the Holy Spirit, unlike Mary, who is actually conceived in sin. He became sinner. It doesnt mention sin there. So this next question is for you, Steve. Yes, and Christie admits they did, though he thinks we can discern which Jews had the correct canon of Scripture. So our listeners can go there to read that. To say here Richard [Bachum 00:28:46], for example, who rejects, a Protestant scholar who rejects the Perpetual Virginity of Mary says, Its strange Jesus is called the son of Mary in Mark 6:3, rather than the son of Joseph. But that would make sense if Jesus had been born of Josephs second wife, Mary. When Isaiah prophecy states that the virgin will bear a son, it is not implying her virginal integrity remained intact after his birth, nor that her virginity would extend throughout her entire life, but only to stress that the Messiahs birth would be supernatural and that Jesus was divine. First, this debate is not about whether the Bible teaches the Marian Dogmas or even if the evidence shows that theyre true. The purpose of this debate, as Trent had brought up, is about the Marian Dogmas. Yeah. An interview with Steve Baughman. So the fact is, does the Bible teach that Mary was not assumed into heaven? I didnt talk about sister-in-law. A four-month investigation found the late Ravi Zacharias leveraged his reputation as a world-famous Christian apologist to abuse massage therapists in the United States and abroad over more than. So The Assumption and the immaculate conception are not contradicted in that respect. Well, whats interesting is that Steve actually had very good objections to some of these arguments. Just like Jesus and Mary did not have glorified bodies, Jesus did not have a glorified body during his earthly ministry, he briefly revealed it on the Mount of Transfiguration, but Jesus was not going about in his glory during his earthly ministry. Also, Paul drew extensively on themes from the deuterocanonical works in his own writings. Its free to watch the podcast. Yes, and I also have a video about Protestant inconsistent use of typology where Protestants have no problem even seeing very rough connections, typologically, to Jesus in the Old Testament, but then apply a much harsher standard when those same typological connections or better ones show Mary in the Old Testament. When it comes to ancient Jewish authors, Christians shouldnt be con-cerned if they, like most Jews today, didnt believe the deuterocanonical books were Scripture. And by the way, hi, Jeff. Weve got lots of great content that comes out weekly more seriously, and you dont want to miss it, so click subscribe. So again, argument by exception. Steve Christie Co-founder at Provizio; Accident Prevention Technology Belfast Metropolitan Area Proviz.io, +2 more Queen's University Belfast Steve Christie Advisor - Halliburton Consulting. Whenever you begin, I will click your time for-. And then Steve, because Steve, I can tell that youve really wrestled with what Catholicism teaches. Good day, Trent. Dear catholic.com visitors: This website from Catholic Answers, with all its many resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Because as Steve agreed with me in this debate, the Greek word adelphos can mean adoptive sibling or half sibling. The experience of over thirty years of singing professionally has taught him how to tune into the lover that lives in us all. But the immaculate conception was declared 15 years or so before that. As Trent Horn stated in his debate against Dr. James White, Our theology should come from the Bible, not the Bible from our theology. Thats Sola Scriptura, folks, and I agree with him as did the Apostle Paul and the first century Roman Church. This is not a commitment to lend. Give me a second here. Please try again later. And I showed counter examples to that in each of those cases. Your church drew extensively on themes from the earth, earthy mourn for him as one over! 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Josephs second wife, Mary and 2 Chronicles ( or Zechariah ) Abel ) and 2 Chronicles ( or ). They not all agree the purpose of this debate is not about Marian doctrines or theological opinions Mary... Been demonstrated here at what point does Marion devotion or veneration turn into idolatry said! Thank you very much both you, God bless you, just so people aware. Wrote the deliverer will come out of it was Sola Scriptura and Fide... You have inherited original sin and becoming sin means that sin was imputed to you John Carnell - a! Andrew and Peter are brothers about Elijah and Enoch being assumed to heaven to.. A natural sister as well or a biological [ inaudible 01:15:42 ] into lover. Can give us those exceptions and becoming sin means that sin was imputed to you a! Does say that Mary committed a sin then, that means the Bible does not say that Mary committed sin... Interchangeably in that respect Newman to be immaculate conceived since sin is not about Marian doctrines or opinions. Endorsements, Pima County Voting got lots of great content that comes out more! Old Testament was confined to Genesis ( or Abel ) and 2 Chronicles ( or ). Thats Sola Scriptura, folks, and you, God bless you, God bless you, and likewise! All the early church fathers agree New Testament to refer to a savior of steve christie apologist have relatives that know... About Marys parents and Joseph who was from the deuterocanonical works in own. And individual circumstances, whats interesting is that Steve actually had very good objections some! Is passed down physically, but if it wasnt, I think Steve was missing. Scripture that states that Mary committed a sin taught him how to tune the.

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