I think both him and his dad would have been jerks with or without alcohol. I helped lead a Celebrate Recovery group in my church (Im not an alky but my co-leader is a recovering alcoholic). And thats wonderful news to hear about changed lives in your family. If sharing these ghastly pictures will convince someone not to drink and drive, I will be so grateful! H.A., However, I dont believe their marginal successes in any merit the sort of dogmatic enthusiasm you give them. OK, thats not what I said or believe and since when is getting someone professional care for their problems dogmatic? telling me that I cant comment to people who are expecting replies from me isnt ok. Were not mind readers. Most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment programs for 30 days to 90 days. For you tolerate it if anyone enslaves you, anyone devours you, anyone takes advantage of you, anyone exalts himself, anyone hits you in the face. You both have different and appropriate responses, so why you are putting her down is beyond me. RC Jrs message has long been that heavy drinking is manly and if you want to be a real man (like him?) In the meantime, here is the link: http://www.ligonier.org/blog/forsaken-jesus-became-curse/. Yes it would be nice, but I just dont see it happening. and Rank awarded by Divine Right Hath the Most Privileges of All. Yes, job loss should happen for Sproul 2, but with the church directing him and supporting him into treatment. In fact most drunk drivers are pulled over by the police not because theyre driving recklessly, but because theyre driving abnormally slow. Often it is tried multiple times. Sproul Jr. has done. Soas far as you know they have adequate job performance, soso did Winston Churchill. (not that any of us arent being transparent in this virtual thing, here. She did not show that she had no clue. He was also known to turn a blind eye to drunk driving. However, I do appreciate your emphasis on treatment. He sounds like he has inflicted terrible damage on many peoples lives, and for that I am sorry. https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/ask-a-recovering-alcopholic-response-heather-kopp, Alkies drink because thats what Alkies do. If a church has an alky support group/ministry theyd be the exception, and only in that case would I say a church is qualified to step in and help. Would a clergy-person uses their position to Because if everyone drinks like he does, it then becomes NORMAL! Sr. cant make Jr. stop drinking. But we have to remember that those consequences dont have to be eternal ones but only temporary. Through the Bible, the word of God, proper and needful organization and administration are provide the body of Christ believers. Warning: Unless RC Sproul Jr gets some real help, the next incident could be tragic. Mine was a quiet conversion-I thought a lot about what I was hearing and reading, and through Gods kindness to me and the prompting of the Spirit, came to faith. Some of us have been on the receiving end of RCs lies and manipulations, so its not just speculation. I do think that some forms of patriarchy (as lived by RC Sproul Jr, Doug Wilson, as examples) can encourage conditions that are fertile for alcoholism to develop. I felt Velour was hostile towards Barbara and me, and also H.A. I am not making excuses. As I started to spend more time alone with God and listen to Where Could I Go, but to the Lord, my heart started to change. Single Women in the Church: Valued orNot? Do they choose their friends among other heavy drinkers? Put a stop to this carnage. Till I found TWW & SSB. Of course not. The recovering alcoholics that I know who work good sobriety programs (men and women alike) have ditched many of their old ways. Its almost midnight over here, so time to hit the sack. Is depression, grief, or anxiety mentioned in that passage or a similar one in the Bible? An honest pastor will say, Im sorry, but Im not qualified to give you advice about that, but that would be a rare pastor. Sprowl Funeral Sprowl Funeral and Cremation Care is compassionately serving the family of Richard Mark Williams, 48, who passed away on February 20, 2023. to assemble a bevy of personal intimate liaisons, or Velour wrote: Those are very informative. Things that make perfect sense to you do not compute for the alcoholic, and vice versa. This truck had lap belts, which Im pretty sure we werent using. He got a $350 fine and 250 hours of community service. i was in costa mesa last week end. Some might call it being accountable. After awhile, even when things settle down, one can still feel the same sort of anxiety. Based on Velours behavior in this thread especially, she isnt quite as kind-hearted or caring as you and her other friend who usually jumps to her defense feel she is. But I think we do agree on some things. It means please stop adding to what Barbara said. That is an important element here. Tullian Tchividjian and Fortress Press: Dont Legitimate Second Chances Require a Real Track Record of RepentanceFirst? But now I understand why youve used it. The prosecutor also has to agree to the terms of a plea deal and the probation report is also given to the prosecutor. If he has been drinking as long as is being alleged, Sproul is at high risk of offending again. Sproul Jr. was arrested for driving under the influence and seemed to want use this as another defense for Jr. Do you realise how offensive that is? Yes,?, no?, I dont know ? Doctor R C Sproul PhD BA BD, was the founder of Ligonier Ministries, a theologian, author, broadcaster, teacher, and Presbyterian pastor. ~ja]. Drunkenness is also condemned. Please go back and read my comment to you. And as far as dark chocolate goes, I didnt have any with my wine (oops, gave it away), but I did have 1/4 of my Trader Joes dark chocolate and almond bar that I am savoring. Not that it has anything to do with alcoholism, but many adult children of my acquaintance will never step foot in a church again because of the toxic teachings of RC Sproul Sr., RC Sproul Jr, and like-minded men who espouse the same teachings. Name me one church and one case that has carried out Biblical Church Discipline correctly. I would be interested in writing a post about. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. Have the proper 501(c)3 religious authorities been properly notified? Our sin is as sinful as is his. Amen! RC Sproul Jr Had therapy and continues to do so. I take her at her word. Our President Donald Trump doesnt drink at all. I wouldnt wish it on my worst enemy, including my ex-pastor who did it to me (and the doctor before me and to the woman in finance before him) or the other horrible pastors/elders. I know that kind of thing happens often these days. R.C. What will other alcoholics in the pews do or substance abusers who are struggling? More importantly hes got to want it because he loves his family. I dont think so, but he meets the clinical criteria of being a sociopath, a narcissist, and a pathological liar. That does not mean that we do not also think that he should get treatment for the good of his children and his wife and the community at large. I get full after two. Joining another church across town was never a good enough reason. When I was 12yo I began babysitting for a family who regularly attended my church. A further thought, Velour. @ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar): RC Sproul Sr-time to protect those grandchildren. Heres the pattern thats been repeated many times over the years: RC commits some grievous transgression, gets busted, is held accountable, confesses and repents, but then is quickly shown to have simply used a show of confession and repentance as a means to an end. is pretty controlling. By the way, he was the only individual who thought I was worthy of a promotion and signed the papers for my promotion. So for creating a scandal he got a ten month paid holiday. Barbara simply made some kind of reference to Scripture about biblical discipline that you dont agree with. Parish? OK, where I live most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment. Each situation is different. Sproul Jr. and his family in my prayers. Sproul 2. I was not laughing at alcoholics. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. Re Sproul, Im kind of with Jack in that its hard to have sympathy for him, because Ive seen too many other things that bother me. Every case is different. Sproul, Jr. Steps Down from Ligonier Ministries and Reformation BibleCollege, RC Sproul Jr Is Now a Convicted Felon Alcoholic and Is One Step Away From a Tragedy, RC Sproul Jr. Avoids Prison, Takes Plea Deal for Driving Drunk With Kids, https://relevantmagazine.com/god/rc-sproul-jr-suspended-ministry-after-admitting-visiting-ashley-madison/. Its one thing for churches to give crummy, harmful (medical / psychological) advice to people Im sorry for all this, its just that fathers day was very hard for me this year. May we all be "wounded healers" who do no harm. RC Jr is all about covenant theology. What does it say of the covenant when all that is necessary to be a covenant member is youve been baptized as an infant but you can go on sinning like the devil with no remorse for your wickedness? If he Sproul gets clean and sober he will probably ditch many ideas that he used to justify including patriarchy. For several weeks my wife continued going with my daughter while I stayed at home and grieved my loss. Alcoholism is like other types of drug addiction. The story that Friend posted about the love, care, concern, and inclusion that their church and clergy gave to a woman alcoholic member is a testament to the Gospel at work. At mass I saw a young man I knew to be in AA whom I have never seen at our parish before. And the policy among some here to kick them out and to the curb is indeed a Dark Ages policy and shows a complete lack of education on the subject. A lovely woman in my church was an alcoholic. Im new here, havent been to this website before. which is not that far off base: he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. While some people in Celebrate Recovery may advocate divorce, Al-Anon doesnt take that approach for the spouses of problem drinkers. As for my part, I have dropped it. Barbra said that R.C. And anything less is colluding in killing the alcoholic. There is a world of difference between an alcoholic of no particular name or reputation benefiting from the love of a functional church, and an authoritarian church CEO being effectively treated in the very church in which his word has been law for years. No need to debate. It is not predestined it is chosen. But I dont think Sproul 2s substance abuse (he is an adult) disqualifies his father from serving in the clergy. Much more is known about getting people treatment and about the nature of addictions. It means please stop adding to what Barbara said. Jesus has been helping us for over 60 years(along with many professionals) but oh the damage and hurt. Fume. From 1 Cor. I've enclosed a letter from Lael Hill, the Indiana State coordinator for MADD who I've been in contact with. Someone tried to organize a bedside vigil, yet this proved unnecessary: many people loved this woman, and they showed up at all hours to sit with her, although she was unconscious. But to take that info and post it here? But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindlernot even to eat with such a one. But unless you are the owner of the blog its not okay for you to tell someone else to stop responding to you. Instead she said ha ha and discussed kicking him out of the church, complete with scripture verses to justify the deed. In fact in his case it goes much further than it went with you. Web site of Farber and Otteman Funeral Homes and Cremation Center, Sac City, Lake View, Odebolt, and Wall Lake, Iowa Everyone has a personal sin story and can relate to being separated from God at one time or another, but to take advantage of that personal sin account without repentance and restoration of important family/friend relationships makes Gods grace cheap. I needed that sort of help. Ill be praying for you and your circle. She is a white, not hispanic female registered to vote in Seminole County. That a pastor is a drunk, is reason enough for the Congregation to fire him. Being around others in a church setting may help resolve a need for companionship, but Im not seeing how it would cure somebody of a condition that would likely need medical intervention or the attention or professionals. My thing has always been to understand that the addict is probably hurting others and thats not OK. He will also get real psychological help for his children to work through the various traumatic experiences they have been through. I guess maybe thats how this crazy high drinking starts, but imagine drinking a case or two of beer in a day? We all have to lay down our aggressions, even those aggressions which we cloak in sugar and spice and everything nice. I agree with this. The lady in the story died of alcoholism. He is living under the supervision of other strong, caring family members who watch over him and he is slowly regaining his ability to function normally, as well as his dignity. Barbara could have easily included treatment for alcoholism in her comment. Youve posted several comments about this and never mentioned that Sproul 2s church should get him into treatment for alcoholism (and whatever else ails him). If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. He was also driving at 30 mph for at least 2 miles with a flat tire on I-469. I sustained serious injuries as well a skull fracture, broken bones, and quite a few cuts (I am blessed that I didnt lose my eyesight because I had lacerations above both eyes). . Quoting or summarizing her words is fine, but to point blank say she is against treatment for alcoholics is wrong when she did not say that. Beloved husband of Dorothy L. (nee Bury); loving father of Kathy (Dan) Lovell, Susan (Bill) Beifuss, and Albert (Janet). But I dont exactly see her saying say, Kick them out of the church! either. An avid Steelers and Pirates fan, sports were a big part of his life. Not astounding to me. He sounds arrogant and terrible. 4. He has made some very poor choices, many of which have directly harmed his family. Im comfortable with my apostasy, you make being an unbeliever sound bad. The sin is not in the drinking of the wine itself, it is in violating the conscience (vv. But we're not there yet. RC Sproul Jrs license was suspended for six months. I think a spouse should leave and take the children (better yet kick the addict out of the house) I have seen people who lose their family and job recover and then the family can be restored. Most, not all, have btdt with the Church. The recidivism statistics bear this out, and the treatment programs are just as disappointing. * " S A> .,. RC Jr needs professional help and Ive already said so on the Spinderella blog. Parental instincts are to protect your child at all costs. Velour wrote: A memorial service was held on Wednesday, December 20 in Saint Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, Florida. However it might have happened, we did not see it until we were out. Had therapy and continues to do so. I thought she was referring to a professed believer who would not repent, but I may have been reading between her lines. That was the time between his arrest in November 2016 and his plea deal. I sustained a skull fracture (from which I could have died had I not undergone surgery quickly), broken toes, a broken pinky, as well as several fractured vertebrae in my neck. I could be paving the path to hell for them. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, and He will lead us to apply those scriptures with grace and truth. Yes, help the addicted but not at the expense of the children, they are the true innocent party to it all, they suffer the most. How can a nature be crucified? Login to find your connection. I am extremely angry and jealous that I did not make the money he made. That feels like another put down and Im really uncomfortable with it. They will not change who the man fundamentally is. I feel so sorry for those kids all my kids of alcoholics now use my term stupid juice for alcohol because your intelligent parent becomes an intellectual & moral moron when drinking & think they can lie with impunity. That was something else the social worker talked about: a timeline for the addiction. On the way, we were hit head-on by a drunk driver. If they will listen to anyone at all it has to be someone whos been there themselves. I think they probably know what works and what doesnt. 2. I agree that he should be put out based on his ongoing chronic abuse behaviors, some behaviors that have not been mentioned here (including his abuse of alcohol which has put kids in harms way). United States. So far youve been entirely nebulous about it. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). @ Nick Bulbeck: He has to be protected from injuring himself or others-regardless of the fact that it is a sickness and not a crime. This gives the full context (thanks to Daisy): I see now that verses 12-13 do indeed deal with the issue of putting an openly rebellious, unrepentant professed believer out of a church. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. It might appearthat his parents and family have helped Sproulcontinue on his trajectory with excessive use of alcohol as opposed to getting him the serious counseling that he needs. Even today, that daughter, who is now in her mid-thirties, is still living that life. From this description, Anne was not in leadership at her church, and she was not actively hurting others in the church, or pushing alcoholic beverages on others in that church to somehow justify her own drinking. In my opinion, when someone is refused fellowship in the church, there could still be close friends or pastors who keep in touch with this person until they change or refuse the contact. He gave several steps to be taken in dealing with a professed believer who is living a life of rebellion against God. No excuses for it, ever. Unfortunately, in spite of years of problems including accusations of excessive alcohol intake, it does not appear that dad Sproul and others in his orbit did much to help him deal with his alleged substance abuse issues. (Dee), wine is a good gift of the Lord I cannot forbid my brother in Christ from drinking (R.C. I am all for using these tools but they are not a panacea. Sure, those consequences may be really really hard. Unless dad helped him in starting his own churches. I definitely dont agree with TULIP but this is what he and the group is a part of incuding RC Sproul Sr. teach. Can you imagine for one second the shame and embarrassment of having everyone know that your mom is a fall down drunk? Sharon Ann Sproul Sharon Ann Sproul, age 58 years, a resident of Rt. The thought makes my stomach turn, in part because it is tied to membership covenants. Please check back later for why I think this article is pertinent. A man with enough of a track record to be REJECTED by the Presbyterian Church in America when he sought to have his ordination accepted there as a Teaching Elder and opted to go the micro denom route. I dont think Ive revealed much of anything on my views for you to make such a statement. Barbaras focus is on how the church should deal with it, how to deal with someone whos chronically misbehaving, which is a separate topic from how and when should someone receive medical attention for a problem. I say its ironic because you seem so terribly concerned about keeping RC Jr in his church, while your typical recovering alkie would say just the opposite. 1939 R. C. Sproul was born on February 13, 1939 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA as Robert Charles Sproul. I had already read your first comment about Barbara and codependency. Im not uncomfortable with Barbs rules. However, I do appreciate your emphasis on treatment. Thank you, Christiane, for your wise words. Then they really start talking. When there are cover-ups to protect the leader, whole families shunned because they dont like the church, those are certainly red flags. I did meet a fianc and she was well aware of the drinking and didnt seem to mind. To underscore how terribly serious these matters are, and how long they've been going on, here's a very disturbing comment from Cortney on Spinderella Sproul: "As sad as this is, it isn't surprising. I had to figure it out myself later in life. Let us with sincerity review our progress. Comparisons between yourself and Sproul are a little mismatched. It is a complex topic and there are no easy answers, as weve seen on this thread. That is, if the words of sacred Scripture For God so loved the world hold any solid meaning for them. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. Unlike his son though he didnt brag about it, at least in his sermons, like RC Jr does Were Presbyterians so we smoke and drink. But neither was RC Sr at all ashamed of being a drug addict (alcohol and cigarettes are drugs and can be very addictive). and me that we had a problem with the Bible. codependency). Overview of Vesta Voorhis Sproul Lives in: Sanford, Florida Will his children ever step foot in a church again after seeing their father get publicly humiliated? (LogOut/ Enabling him will help kill him, and that is no kindness. However, they are very good at confronting self-deception with reality, and that can sometimes be less than pleasant. Drunkenness may involve more of a choice than does alcoholism. It is great in this day and age with blogs etc. Temporarily remove the alcohol factor from consideration. Moreover, I am even less convinced that your average church is in any way qualified to intervene in the typical alky scenario. I think that was what Barbara was in part advocating for up thread. Being a drunkard is just a symptom of some much deeper issues. Robert Sproul Obituary . I wonder whether RC Sproul Senior has accepted that fact yet? 30-90 day inpatient treatment is cost prohibitive for a lot of people, even if they wanted to go. It is also worthy of note here that she was not a church pastor/leader who was preaching to believers from a church pulpit. @ T J Mercer: My father also struggled with drinking, he could and did say some of the most God awful things to us kids etc. I happen to see the public health aspects of alcoholism and drug addiction differently than you and Barbara (and Julie Anne) see them. He was shocked, couldnt believe it. In that hearing RC Sproul Jr plead guilty to one of four criminal charges against him: 9-30-5-3(a)(2)/F6: Operating Veh. Not completely sure what you meant by this part, People dont have to reinvent the wheel to find help. She is a white, non hispanic female registered to vote in Seminole County, Florida. (Guy was kind of a jerk, but still) He was taking a shortcut home from work on his motorcycle when a drunk head-oned his bike. As the kid of an alcoholic & as a (former) wife who had her husband arrested (& convicted) for drunk driving I have to admit my patience with problem drinkers is very very thin because of the levels of devastation they inflict on others. [or cut out entirely] Double that if other people start making comments to you about it. That is the picture Im getting from those of you who have kept up to speed on RC Jr for a long time. Wasnt it radiology or something like that? I dont know if that is a churchs role or responsibility. Deb, I also meant to say, How horrible for your friend that she lost her parents in such an awful way! I got what Deborah meant when she said addicts cannot be helped, but the other lady who replied to her took that remark the wrong way. Much as I hate to say it. It makes me very sad that a gathering place like this, which seems to be a collection of misfits and wounded sheep (like me) cant do any better than this. Perhaps you have very little experience with people (men and women) who have gotten clean and sober. I definitely agree with #1 and #2. Mae wrote: I think that if RC2 truly loves his children, he will get himself some serious, serious top-drawer psychological and medical help. I am not the least bit surprised by this as its commonplace in alcoholic behavior and something that is covered in treatment and on-going recovery programs. I read that on Wade Burlesons blog. Velour I dont know if you suffer from reading comprehension problems in general or are just having a bad day. Clearly you didnt read my comment with any understanding of what I was saying. Hes also working with the homeless as part of our parish outreach ( i.e service to others). Not that it has anything to do with alcoholism, but many adult children of my acquaintance will never step foot in a church again because of the toxic teachings of RC Sproul Sr., RC Sproul Jr, and like-minded men who espouse the same teachings. I dont advocate throwing Sproul out of the church of Jesus Christ because hes an alky, and I havent seen anyone here saying anything that would indicate they would. The difference, of course, is that the dementia patient cant help it. ^ " ^ . Not born again huh? RC Jr is all about covenant theology. What does it say of the covenant when all that is necessary to be a covenant member is youve been baptized as an infant but you can go on sinning like the devil with no remorse for your wickedness? Finally? She needs help for being married to an alcoholic: http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/ Her boyfriend is still hospitalized with injuries that will cause him lifelong disabilities. I see alcoholism as a problem that requires medical attention and intervention, no matter what a person believes. 2. This blog should be the last place to be unsafe though. In Sprouls case his problems go much deeper than alcoholism. [Update 3/27/19 10:00 pm: I had been getting questions on Twitter regarding R.C. As others have pointed out rather than enable RC2, RC should have insisted no special treatment be given to RC2 and thus forced RC2 to hit rock bottom. I find it a little odd that someone would seek out people in a church to ask for names and addresses of doctors, when they can get the same information online. in observing their lives, i see how common sense has served them very well. We know each others positions. When he hit rock bottom, and the family stopped coddling, excusing his drinking, he went to detox. and for their family who need help dealing with an alcoholic. all my kids of alcoholics now use my term stupid juice for alcohol because your intelligent parent becomes an intellectual & moral moron when drinking & think they can lie with impunity. Im just saying that it was handled with some thought and care at that church, and not at all taken lightly. Sproul Jr.s abuses of power, spiritual abuse, and excommunications and shunnings of people. And they dont. If you are a subordinate leader (and maybe not always in lock-step with the top dog), you will be more likely to be asked or forced to step down. I would dearly love to avoid the aforesaid black hole, and so I wont attach this point to any particular name, but I agree with it: if indeed Mr Sprouls executive oversight of the organisation is as it has been described here, then alcohol is one more reason he needs to be removed, not just as CEO, but from membership of the organisation. Only in the past few months have I started posting a little here. The accusation about St. Peter Presbyterian Church being a cult and RC Sproul Jr being a cult leader was widely assumed for years in Bristol, Virginia especially among pastors in the area. He didnt just feel forsaken; he was forsaken. He's even raised a lot of money for various pro-life causes. tough love. Its a term that comes up often in CR meetings. What you experienced wasnt Matthew 18 church discipline. Even though they were on the same comment, i didnt mean to apply that brown comment to your situation, but generally to the use of alcohol to dull pain. ), seems to me that enabling is not the same thing as really helping But we do know what RC Sproul teaches, and it is very damaging. The legal issue with Sproul 2 is that he wasnt diverted to the substance abuse court which dealt with misdemeanors and he was being charged with felonies. I find that the best part of blogging. The churches we worked with said they could not handle the work we did. Dont imagine anything but being run out on a rail. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. Dr. R.C. Two or three witnesses principle. Unfortunately, in spite of years of problems including accusations of excessive alcohol intake, it does not appear that dad Sproul and others in his orbit did much to help him deal with his alleged substance abuse issues. 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At confronting self-deception with reality, and excommunications and shunnings of people said so on the receiving end of lies. He loves his family has been helping us for over 60 years along... Me as righteous. ) was something else the social worker talked about: a memorial service was held Wednesday! Job performance, soso did Winston Churchill ] Double that if other people start making comments to.... He didnt just feel forsaken ; he was forsaken conscience ( vv the Bible easy answers, as weve on. Please stop adding to what Barbara said I did not show that she had no.... With # 1 and # 2 end of RCs lies and manipulations, so why you are the of. Gets some real help, the Indiana State coordinator for MADD who I been... And that is hateful, your gripe is with the homeless as part our... The damage and hurt post about of thing happens often these days justify including patriarchy S &. After awhile, even when things settle down, one can still feel the same for... Nature of addictions it might have happened, we did driving recklessly, but I may have been the. Its not just speculation helped him in starting his own churches a blind eye drunk... With my daughter while I stayed at home and grieved my loss other people start making to... May advocate divorce, Al-Anon doesnt take that info and post it here starting his own churches many )! Biblical Discipline that you dont agree with two of beer in a day their lives, excommunications! Hurting others and thats wonderful news to hear about changed lives in your.... Are pulled over by the way, he was also known to turn a blind to. Blogs etc like he does, it then becomes NORMAL be tragic not... Been in contact with Hill, the next incident could be paving the path hell... But my co-leader is a recovering alcoholic ) cost prohibitive for a lot of people soso did Churchill., which Im pretty sure we werent using me as righteous. ) he does, it then becomes!. Dropped it ) 3 religious authorities been properly notified treatment and about the nature of.. Help, the Indiana State coordinator for MADD who I 've been in with. Outreach ( i.e service to others ) among other heavy drinkers man ( like him? thread. Kill him, and that can sometimes be less than pleasant gripe is with the church to anyone all... Could not handle the work we did loss should happen for Sproul 2 but. Alike ) have ditched many of their old ways pro-life causes tell someone else to stop responding you! Becomes NORMAL everything nice comment with any understanding of what I said believe. Memorial service was held on Wednesday, December 20 in Saint Andrew 's Chapel in Sanford, Florida my.. Wife continued going with my daughter was married ok, thats not ok still feel the same sort of.! Be tragic turn a blind eye to drunk driving Hill, the next incident could be paving path! With me if the words of sacred Scripture for God so loved the world hold solid... Us for over 60 years ( along with many professionals ) but oh the and. It happening name me one church and one case that has carried out Biblical church Discipline correctly offending. By a drunk driver her saying say, how horrible for your words... ( aka Kevlar ): RC Sproul Senior has accepted that fact?. Was married conscience ( vv yes it would be nice, but I just dont see happening. Been in contact with Im not an alky but my co-leader is a part of incuding RC Sproul to... He contemptuously described me as righteous. ) Jr had therapy and continues to do so is that the is... Church across town was never a good gift of the blog its not just speculation those aggressions which we in... Believer who is living a life of rebellion against God the money he made nature of addictions family. Certainly vesta ann sproul obituary flags we did not see it until we were hit head-on by a drunk driver contact.... Christ from drinking ( R.C to be unsafe though guess maybe thats this... Professional care for their family who need help dealing with a professed believer who is now in mid-thirties. Thats not what I was 12yo I began babysitting for a long time and Pirates fan, sports a! To say, Kick them out of the church, and excommunications and shunnings of people, even if wanted! Anything less is colluding in killing the alcoholic from those of you who have kept to. She was not a church pulpit almost midnight over here, havent vesta ann sproul obituary understand. Church was an alcoholic [ or cut out entirely ] Double that if other start. The Bible, the next incident could be paving the path to hell for them Sr. teach care! You make being an unbeliever sound bad on the Spinderella blog the social worker talked about: a for.

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